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menomegirlFrom one of my posts at Bronze-Beta.
I edited and cut for lenght.
I updated this on 7/12/04
*g*
7/7.....
white wings~Okay, I agree 100% with #1, which is what makes it so hard for me to stand in the middle on this issue, nevertheless, it seems it be where I'm destined to remain. All of this part--Angel knew that W&H would not be destroyed. So maybe someone with a trace of a conscience and the ability to manipulate things as well as Lindsey had done at W&H was better than someone with no conscience at all. And Lindsey actually didn't worship the Senior Partners. Angel was comfortable enough to make a joke at the end of their conversation--- is basically what I think as well.
However.
Angel told Harmony he was going to do something he didn't want to.
The whole I want you, Lindsey scene smacked of the flirty/friendly vibe Angel and Lindsey had in Dead End. They're talking, not fighting. But it's still a spar, it's still little boys, knocking at each other's building blocks. Angel tells Lindsey, "I happen to be the greatest mass murderer you've ever met." And Lindsey responds with "I've never given you props for that, have I?" Then Angel says he'd rather have Lindsey step into the void after the fight, Lindsey says "The devil you know." Angel ahem looks Lindsey over ahem and replies, "That would be you." See? Flirty/friendly. I loved it.
There is a major sticky point, and here is why I believe Angel did, in fact, talk Lorne into killing Lindsey~~~~
In this part, Angel's back is facing Lindsey. He can't see Angel's face.
Lindsey says~"Here's the plot twist. I'm in."
Angel's entire body goes still and he says "Why?". You can tell by the way he says that one word, and the music that begins playing in the background....that this is it. It's the focal point of this scene. Lindsey starts talking, and if you closely watch Angel's face, you'll see he's not hearing what he wants to hear. There's some major disappointment going on in his expression, maybe even bitter disappointment.
Then he turns around and makes the I want you, Lindsey joke, which I loved, but it was muted by the seconds preceeding it.
After Lindsey kills the demons, we see Lorne looking over the carnage, and Lindsey is washing his hands. This is very telling, because if Lindsey had known about the alley, he WOULD NOT have taken the time to do this. You do not stop to do something like that, and just stand around talking when there is a major smack-down about to occur. Therefore, Lindsey did not know.
And Angel told the skanky ho that Lindsey was not coming for her. (Full pun intended.)
Last, but by no means least, no one who made it to the alley asked about either Lorne or Lindsey.
Conclusion:Angel ordered the murder of Lindsey McDonald, and he did so in front of the entire team. cc~Ojagwers, lucille
ETA--No, I'm not through yet. More will be along shortly. Please wait before anyone baps, smacks, or responds. RTFL.......
Ojagwers, white wings~ Granted, the team had a right to be upset with Lindsey. He did conspire with the skanky ho that nobody likes to do bad things to Angelcakes. Bad Lindsey. Bad puppy. *bap*
However, that Boiling in his own filth remark was too crude and quite ironic, indeed, in light of Gunn's coming actions. I think that he did feel threatened, on some level, by Lindsey's return, because he had, after all, been W & H's golden boy. Did you not notice that Gunn did not begin losing his ill-gotten knowledge until after Lindsey showed up? I'm positive Gunn thought about that little fact.
As far as Lorne resenting Lindsey for Gunn having his heart ripped out daily for two weeks.....well, it was Gunn's choice. Lindsey didn't have any say in that. Besides, he'd had his own heart ripped out daily for even longer than that. You'd think Lorne would give Lindsey the benefit of the doubt over that fact alone.
And I'm through for now, I think. I'd only be repeating myself if I go into the Flunky comment, because my opinion on that hasn't changed. And neither has my opinion on the I've heard you sing line, either.
The look on Lorne's face right after Lindsey stopped breathing was heartbreaking. In fact, Lorne's facial expressions reminded me of two scenes that tore me up:
S1~Lindsey's face in Blind Date when he's sitting in that chair in front of Holland Manners, thinking he's going to die, and being as stoic as he can.
S4~Angel's face in S4 in Home when he faces Connor, and knows what he has to do.
And here's a question for you guys:
If Cordelia gave Angel that vision, what the hell did he need Lindsey for? He knew everything, and made this big plan....I mean........HUH?
7/8....
white wings~You agreed with me about the disappointment on Angel's face?!?! You conceed that it looks as though Lindsey was not aware they were supposed to meet in the alley?? You can actually see my side of things, the way I can see yours! HA HA! I almost have you talked into standing in the middle with me?
I feel like I just won the equivalent of an Oscar, Bronze-Beta style....for Best Written and Researched Post or something! LMAO.
I feel kind of giddy with glee, y'all. *g*
I agree with you on why Angel went to get Lindsey. It's the only thing that makes sense, in hindsight. If Angel knew all this stuff from his vision, then he didn't truly need Lindsey's knowledge. And it makes her even skankier, IMO. Because I agree with the statements that were made yesterday, reguarding her giving up her immortality. She didn't do it for love of Lindsey. The skanky ho did it, because she had no other choice. She used and manipulated everyone around her into thinking Hamilton was going to kill her. Even Lorne. (And he'd just read her. Funny, that, hmm?) It's sad that Lindsey died thinking she had given it up for him, and that he didn't know anything about the Holloween party.
As for the Gunn thing, I'm not really hating on him.....just trying to get into his head a little, to try and understand that comment. I found it very un-Gunn worthy, and it's bothered me ever since. Frankly, S4 Gunn pissed me off. I was tired of him thinking he was stupid, or just the muscle of the team. A lot of the time, when Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley were at a dead end, it was Gunn who had a good idea, or the correct thought that lead somewhere. Gunn was the one who thought W & H were putting Darla up in an apartment, and it was Gunn who thought of a nursery being a place to grow things, where there was dirt, and that is where Drusilla had taken Darla.
Yeah, I do think Gunn had jealousy issues with Lindsey. Maybe it's too subtle to be seen, but it was there. This may be one of the things that was planned, but did not get written because of the cancellation. It would have made a great subplot, too. *sighs*
Ojagwers~RTFLMAO at the Rod of Moral Rectitude....*snort*. Yo, that was funny! While I do see your point, re *good* and *evil*, I prefer to think of the Immortal being Duncan, instead of Methos.
And..hmmmmm. Your last paragraph suggests you may be entering the arena of middle ground in the Angel/Lindsey/Lorne debate, as well. *g*
7/12
First-Ojagwers, Adri, white wings-
I've thought about it, considered many things, and I agree that Giles killing Ben was premeditated. But there are degrees of murder, and I'm going to explain my thoughts on this, as best I can. So , again with the long post. *sigh*
Murder is the act of killing another human being with "malice aforethought". Malice aforethought is defined to be the intent to kill or to inflict bodily injury, either express or implied. If a deadly weapon is used, intent to kill will necessarily be implied by a court of law.
First Degree Murder is the most serious. Most often, first degree murder is categorized as "deliberate" - that is, the defendant made a clear headed decision to kill the victim - and "premeditated" - the defendant actually thought about the killing before it occurred (the period for this can be very brief).
Second–Degree Murder
a murder that is committed without premeditation but with some intent (as general or transferred intent) or other circumstances not covered by the first-degree murder statute.
Third–Degree Murder
a murder that is not first- or second-degree murder: as a : a murder committed in the perpetration of a felony not listed in the first-degree murder statute.
Justifiable Homicide
homicide that is committed in self-defense, in defense of another and esp. a member of one's family or sometimes in defense of a residence, in preventing a felony esp. involving great bodily harm, or in performing a legal duty and that is justified under the law with no criminal punishment imposed.
Solicitation of Murder
A person is guilty of solicitation to commit a felony when with intent to promote or facilitate its commission he commands, encourages or requests another person to perform or omit to perform an act which constitutes such crime or an attempt to commit such crime or would establish his complicity in its commission or attempted commission.
Conspiracy To Commit Murder
A person is guilty of conspiracy to commit a murder if:
(a) he agrees with one or more other persons that he or one of them will engage in conduct which constitutes such crime;
(b) he does so with the intention of engaging in, promoting or assisting in the conduct which constitutes such crime; and
(c) he or one of them performs an overt act in pursuance of the agreement.
Giles did have time to think about it, and he arrived to the conclusion that there was simply no other choice. He had to kill Ben, in order to kill Glory, who was a hellgod, and whose motives were well-known. He did it to save the lives of everyone about him. Ben had shown that he wasn't a total innocent by bringing Dawn back, instead of letting her go (Giles did not know this, however, we do.) So, Giles simply did what he felt compelled to do, because he knew exactly what Glory would do, and he did what Buffy would not.
Willow killing Warren Mears--
I don't think I need go into too much detail on this one.
Buffy-the attempted murder of Faith. I must include this one also. Reasoning- Faith had poisoned Angel. The only cure was ingestion of the blood of a slayer. Buffy immediately decides she's going to kill Faith, bring her dead body for Angel's cure. Now, I grant you, Faith was bad. She had messed with every one of the Scoobies. But was that enough for Buffy to go from point A to point B that darn fast, when Oz told her the cure? No, it was not. She made the choice to try and kill Faith.
Lorne-He pulled the trigger. His motives don't matter that much, in the long run. Lindsey was not threatening him, did not have a weapon in his hand, and was in fact, offering to bare his soul (in other words) for Lorne to read him. Lorne answered with a bullet in the heart.
Angel-Going on Not Fade Away alone, I firmly believe Angel told Lorne to kill Lindsey. His motives for doing so are extremely murky. And it's compounded by the fact that he used Lindsey to his own ends, and then had him killed, after Lindsey had helped the team.
I think I've been fairly clear this time. This is my opinion only. If I were on the jury, these would be my verdicts.
Reguarding Power Play and the Circle of the Black Thorn- Lindsey never confirmed that he was, in fact, attempting to join. This is the exchange-
LINDSEY
The senior partners are on a different plane. Down here...it's the players in the circle that make things happen. Hell, you get tapped by one of them, it's kind of like getting the keys to the chocolate factory.
WESLEY
That's why you came back to L.A., tried to kill Angel. To get into the circle.
LINDSEY
To be a Black Thorn is to be the senior partners' instrument on Earth. Doesn't get bigger than that.
GUNN
Looks like Angel succeeded where you failed.
LINDSEY
He doesn't have it in him.
He let them assume so, but he never came right out and said that that had been his plan. And isn't it interesting how Lindsey said He doesn't have it in him. and that he would have to kill one of his friends before the Black Thorn would even begin to accept Angel.
Final comment-Angel didn't just order Lindsey murdered. He used him for his own purposes first, then when his usefullness was over, Lorne shot Lindsey dead. Do I think it negated all the good Angel had done?
Yes, I do.
It smacked of the cruelty that Angelus showed in the murder of Jenny Calander. It wasn't enough to kill her-he had to taunt Giles with her death.
In this case, Angel was not just responsible for Lindsey's death, but by involving Lorne, made it worse. It was dirty, back-handed, and vicious, no matter what his reasoning was. To kill someone, based on what they *might* do in the future, is utterly wrong. Angel played judge, jury and God when he ordered Lindsey's death.
Oh, yeah....this is JMO....of course.
I edited and cut for lenght.
I updated this on 7/12/04
*g*
7/7.....
white wings~Okay, I agree 100% with #1, which is what makes it so hard for me to stand in the middle on this issue, nevertheless, it seems it be where I'm destined to remain. All of this part--Angel knew that W&H would not be destroyed. So maybe someone with a trace of a conscience and the ability to manipulate things as well as Lindsey had done at W&H was better than someone with no conscience at all. And Lindsey actually didn't worship the Senior Partners. Angel was comfortable enough to make a joke at the end of their conversation--- is basically what I think as well.
However.
Angel told Harmony he was going to do something he didn't want to.
The whole I want you, Lindsey scene smacked of the flirty/friendly vibe Angel and Lindsey had in Dead End. They're talking, not fighting. But it's still a spar, it's still little boys, knocking at each other's building blocks. Angel tells Lindsey, "I happen to be the greatest mass murderer you've ever met." And Lindsey responds with "I've never given you props for that, have I?" Then Angel says he'd rather have Lindsey step into the void after the fight, Lindsey says "The devil you know." Angel ahem looks Lindsey over ahem and replies, "That would be you." See? Flirty/friendly. I loved it.
But
There is a major sticky point, and here is why I believe Angel did, in fact, talk Lorne into killing Lindsey~~~~
In this part, Angel's back is facing Lindsey. He can't see Angel's face.
Lindsey says~"Here's the plot twist. I'm in."
Angel's entire body goes still and he says "Why?". You can tell by the way he says that one word, and the music that begins playing in the background....that this is it. It's the focal point of this scene. Lindsey starts talking, and if you closely watch Angel's face, you'll see he's not hearing what he wants to hear. There's some major disappointment going on in his expression, maybe even bitter disappointment.
Then he turns around and makes the I want you, Lindsey joke, which I loved, but it was muted by the seconds preceeding it.
After Lindsey kills the demons, we see Lorne looking over the carnage, and Lindsey is washing his hands. This is very telling, because if Lindsey had known about the alley, he WOULD NOT have taken the time to do this. You do not stop to do something like that, and just stand around talking when there is a major smack-down about to occur. Therefore, Lindsey did not know.
And Angel told the skanky ho that Lindsey was not coming for her. (Full pun intended.)
Last, but by no means least, no one who made it to the alley asked about either Lorne or Lindsey.
Conclusion:Angel ordered the murder of Lindsey McDonald, and he did so in front of the entire team. cc~Ojagwers, lucille
ETA--No, I'm not through yet. More will be along shortly. Please wait before anyone baps, smacks, or responds. RTFL.......
Ojagwers, white wings~ Granted, the team had a right to be upset with Lindsey. He did conspire with the skanky ho that nobody likes to do bad things to Angelcakes. Bad Lindsey. Bad puppy. *bap*
However, that Boiling in his own filth remark was too crude and quite ironic, indeed, in light of Gunn's coming actions. I think that he did feel threatened, on some level, by Lindsey's return, because he had, after all, been W & H's golden boy. Did you not notice that Gunn did not begin losing his ill-gotten knowledge until after Lindsey showed up? I'm positive Gunn thought about that little fact.
As far as Lorne resenting Lindsey for Gunn having his heart ripped out daily for two weeks.....well, it was Gunn's choice. Lindsey didn't have any say in that. Besides, he'd had his own heart ripped out daily for even longer than that. You'd think Lorne would give Lindsey the benefit of the doubt over that fact alone.
And I'm through for now, I think. I'd only be repeating myself if I go into the Flunky comment, because my opinion on that hasn't changed. And neither has my opinion on the I've heard you sing line, either.
The look on Lorne's face right after Lindsey stopped breathing was heartbreaking. In fact, Lorne's facial expressions reminded me of two scenes that tore me up:
S1~Lindsey's face in Blind Date when he's sitting in that chair in front of Holland Manners, thinking he's going to die, and being as stoic as he can.
S4~Angel's face in S4 in Home when he faces Connor, and knows what he has to do.
And here's a question for you guys:
If Cordelia gave Angel that vision, what the hell did he need Lindsey for? He knew everything, and made this big plan....I mean........HUH?
7/8....
white wings~You agreed with me about the disappointment on Angel's face?!?! You conceed that it looks as though Lindsey was not aware they were supposed to meet in the alley?? You can actually see my side of things, the way I can see yours! HA HA! I almost have you talked into standing in the middle with me?
WOW!
I feel like I just won the equivalent of an Oscar, Bronze-Beta style....for Best Written and Researched Post or something! LMAO.
I feel kind of giddy with glee, y'all. *g*
I agree with you on why Angel went to get Lindsey. It's the only thing that makes sense, in hindsight. If Angel knew all this stuff from his vision, then he didn't truly need Lindsey's knowledge. And it makes her even skankier, IMO. Because I agree with the statements that were made yesterday, reguarding her giving up her immortality. She didn't do it for love of Lindsey. The skanky ho did it, because she had no other choice. She used and manipulated everyone around her into thinking Hamilton was going to kill her. Even Lorne. (And he'd just read her. Funny, that, hmm?) It's sad that Lindsey died thinking she had given it up for him, and that he didn't know anything about the Holloween party.
As for the Gunn thing, I'm not really hating on him.....just trying to get into his head a little, to try and understand that comment. I found it very un-Gunn worthy, and it's bothered me ever since. Frankly, S4 Gunn pissed me off. I was tired of him thinking he was stupid, or just the muscle of the team. A lot of the time, when Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley were at a dead end, it was Gunn who had a good idea, or the correct thought that lead somewhere. Gunn was the one who thought W & H were putting Darla up in an apartment, and it was Gunn who thought of a nursery being a place to grow things, where there was dirt, and that is where Drusilla had taken Darla.
Yeah, I do think Gunn had jealousy issues with Lindsey. Maybe it's too subtle to be seen, but it was there. This may be one of the things that was planned, but did not get written because of the cancellation. It would have made a great subplot, too. *sighs*
Ojagwers~RTFLMAO at the Rod of Moral Rectitude....*snort*. Yo, that was funny! While I do see your point, re *good* and *evil*, I prefer to think of the Immortal being Duncan, instead of Methos.
And..hmmmmm. Your last paragraph suggests you may be entering the arena of middle ground in the Angel/Lindsey/Lorne debate, as well. *g*
7/12
First-Ojagwers, Adri, white wings-
I've thought about it, considered many things, and I agree that Giles killing Ben was premeditated. But there are degrees of murder, and I'm going to explain my thoughts on this, as best I can. So , again with the long post. *sigh*
Murder is the act of killing another human being with "malice aforethought". Malice aforethought is defined to be the intent to kill or to inflict bodily injury, either express or implied. If a deadly weapon is used, intent to kill will necessarily be implied by a court of law.
First Degree Murder is the most serious. Most often, first degree murder is categorized as "deliberate" - that is, the defendant made a clear headed decision to kill the victim - and "premeditated" - the defendant actually thought about the killing before it occurred (the period for this can be very brief).
Second–Degree Murder
a murder that is committed without premeditation but with some intent (as general or transferred intent) or other circumstances not covered by the first-degree murder statute.
Third–Degree Murder
a murder that is not first- or second-degree murder: as a : a murder committed in the perpetration of a felony not listed in the first-degree murder statute.
Justifiable Homicide
homicide that is committed in self-defense, in defense of another and esp. a member of one's family or sometimes in defense of a residence, in preventing a felony esp. involving great bodily harm, or in performing a legal duty and that is justified under the law with no criminal punishment imposed.
Solicitation of Murder
A person is guilty of solicitation to commit a felony when with intent to promote or facilitate its commission he commands, encourages or requests another person to perform or omit to perform an act which constitutes such crime or an attempt to commit such crime or would establish his complicity in its commission or attempted commission.
Conspiracy To Commit Murder
A person is guilty of conspiracy to commit a murder if:
(a) he agrees with one or more other persons that he or one of them will engage in conduct which constitutes such crime;
(b) he does so with the intention of engaging in, promoting or assisting in the conduct which constitutes such crime; and
(c) he or one of them performs an overt act in pursuance of the agreement.
Giles did have time to think about it, and he arrived to the conclusion that there was simply no other choice. He had to kill Ben, in order to kill Glory, who was a hellgod, and whose motives were well-known. He did it to save the lives of everyone about him. Ben had shown that he wasn't a total innocent by bringing Dawn back, instead of letting her go (Giles did not know this, however, we do.) So, Giles simply did what he felt compelled to do, because he knew exactly what Glory would do, and he did what Buffy would not.
Verdict-Justifiable Homicide.
Willow killing Warren Mears--
I don't think I need go into too much detail on this one.
Verdict-Not guilty by reason of temporary insanity.
Buffy-the attempted murder of Faith. I must include this one also. Reasoning- Faith had poisoned Angel. The only cure was ingestion of the blood of a slayer. Buffy immediately decides she's going to kill Faith, bring her dead body for Angel's cure. Now, I grant you, Faith was bad. She had messed with every one of the Scoobies. But was that enough for Buffy to go from point A to point B that darn fast, when Oz told her the cure? No, it was not. She made the choice to try and kill Faith.
Verdict-Attempted Murder.
Lorne-He pulled the trigger. His motives don't matter that much, in the long run. Lindsey was not threatening him, did not have a weapon in his hand, and was in fact, offering to bare his soul (in other words) for Lorne to read him. Lorne answered with a bullet in the heart.
Verdict-Premeditated Murder in the First Degree. Conspiracy to Commit Murder.
Angel-Going on Not Fade Away alone, I firmly believe Angel told Lorne to kill Lindsey. His motives for doing so are extremely murky. And it's compounded by the fact that he used Lindsey to his own ends, and then had him killed, after Lindsey had helped the team.
Verdict-Solicitation of Murder. Conspiracy To Commit Murder. Premeditated Murder, in the First Degree.
I think I've been fairly clear this time. This is my opinion only. If I were on the jury, these would be my verdicts.
Reguarding Power Play and the Circle of the Black Thorn- Lindsey never confirmed that he was, in fact, attempting to join. This is the exchange-
LINDSEY
The senior partners are on a different plane. Down here...it's the players in the circle that make things happen. Hell, you get tapped by one of them, it's kind of like getting the keys to the chocolate factory.
WESLEY
That's why you came back to L.A., tried to kill Angel. To get into the circle.
LINDSEY
To be a Black Thorn is to be the senior partners' instrument on Earth. Doesn't get bigger than that.
GUNN
Looks like Angel succeeded where you failed.
LINDSEY
He doesn't have it in him.
He let them assume so, but he never came right out and said that that had been his plan. And isn't it interesting how Lindsey said He doesn't have it in him. and that he would have to kill one of his friends before the Black Thorn would even begin to accept Angel.
Final comment-Angel didn't just order Lindsey murdered. He used him for his own purposes first, then when his usefullness was over, Lorne shot Lindsey dead. Do I think it negated all the good Angel had done?
Yes, I do.
It smacked of the cruelty that Angelus showed in the murder of Jenny Calander. It wasn't enough to kill her-he had to taunt Giles with her death.
In this case, Angel was not just responsible for Lindsey's death, but by involving Lorne, made it worse. It was dirty, back-handed, and vicious, no matter what his reasoning was. To kill someone, based on what they *might* do in the future, is utterly wrong. Angel played judge, jury and God when he ordered Lindsey's death.
Oh, yeah....this is JMO....of course.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2004-07-07 11:58 am (UTC)AMEN!
I have no other words... [smooches your wonderful arguementy-ness]
(Huh? Is too a word!)
(no subject)
Date: 2004-07-07 12:13 pm (UTC)BTW~Bring sunscreen and drink lots of bottled water.
*kissy face*
Well then,
Date: 2004-07-07 02:40 pm (UTC)You win Dee Dee. No one can argue with that - if they do - I want to read it...
In light of these argumentative skills you possess:
I dub you....Lindsey's protege? Lindsey Jr? Anyone???
::kissies::
Re: Well then,
Date: 2004-07-07 02:53 pm (UTC)Hell, the Great!SpikeDebate has only been going on for three yaers!
RTFLMFAO.........
(no subject)
Date: 2004-07-08 07:11 am (UTC)On the question you asked: Visions are canonically shown to be very scatter-shot, with a lot of details that have to be filled in in real world time before the gang can hope to make a difference. Maybe Angel got the broadstroke, but needed Lindsey to fill in the details. Or maybe because Lindsey understands the W&H mindset on a gut level, while Angel was still very much floundering and having to let his brain catch up two steps later.
Ooh! Or, back to the tragedy angle: If Angel thought that Lindsey was beyond saving, he figured that he could at least give him an honest death and let him recieve whatever he'd earned in the next world. Had to be better than letting him stay in a torturous limbo for eternity.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-07-08 08:36 am (UTC)But, you are right. Angel said, "You haven't heard a word I've said....for like, years."
If Lindsey had said something other than what he did when Angel asked "Why?"....
*sigh*
I hated the way he died. I cannot even express how much. My only consolation is that I believe he honestly believed Angel and him could set aside their differences and maybe he would have become a better person.
I really hate the WB.